TFH 2.1.4 Tier List
About a month ago, I made a tier list for the current version of Them's Fightin Herds. I was planning to make a follow up video to document how my viewpoints might have changed and elaborate further on its more controversial aspects. However, because so many tier lists came out recently, I felt it was important to document in written form.
I highly recommend you watch the initial tier list video if you have time. It's formatted differently than this one, and to my surprise- the discussion was insanely fun and productive (the total opposite of the BBCF tier list I did a year ago). I'm also going to reference it at several points.
First, let's be SUPER clear about what this tier list is all about.
- This tier list assumes low ping or offline play. There is ZERO consideration being given to international tournaments. I'll expand on that a little when I talk about Oleander.
- This tier list is a prediction on how the meta will develop long term in addition to how these characters will fit into that meta. It assumes players have developed and explored what we know of existing counterplay. Since this patch is so young (five months is not very long), there's no way that we've found everything. It always has more room to develop, but we're able to make educated guesses about what's valuable.
- This tier list is completely my own opinion, lightly influenced by conversation with my main playgroup. It will not reference any other currently circulating tier lists, but if you made one- I promise you that I read it. I try to read everything as long as it isn't repetitive.
- I still think that there is a lot of room to grow. This is more of a "snapshot" of my perceptions more than anything else.
This last one is too big for a bullet point: I am not referencing current tournament results for this write up. There is a time and a place to consider tournament representation when making a tier list. Five months after a patch drops, with only netplay tournaments, most of which lack serious region restrictions, in a game that is insanely well balanced, where layer 1 counterplay isn't fully applied by a lot of frequent placers, is very much NOT that time.There's nothing meaningful we can draw from current tournament results. Them's Fightin' Herds is a young game, and 2.0 is a young patch. This isn't to say I am not considering things done in tournament play- but they are being evaluated differently.
This is a controversial stance to take. It's natural to look at tournament results and see that as the state of the game- but this patch hasn't even had a serious offline tournament. Even so, there are plenty of examples of Top 8 results that don't match the existing meta (Shoutouts to Kokonoe at EVO 2014). Being someone who gathers representation statistics, I don't think there is much we can do with this information YET. Give it time.
So, what's the meta looking like in developed play?
TFH 2.0 is a system oriented game. The toolkits across the cast are fairly balanced, but the strength disparities come more from relationship with the system rather than toolkit faults. There's a lot more to understanding developed play than a list of strengths/weaknesses.
- Cross Canter is insanely good!
- Pushblocking is a much higher commitment than it first appears.
- Having practical HKD access really helps.
- There's almost no reason to tech until it's time to forward roll.
- Your most practical starters on offense should have solid first hit JD reduction.
- Health difference matters more.
S. Velvet
S. Pom
Pom's a low health character, which is a big drawback this patch. Unlike the other low health characters, she has VERY strong defensive options with dogs. The presence of digger and to a lesser extent bitey completely remove the opponent's ability to do any form of stagger pressure. The opponent is either forced to do true blockstrings or disengage from offense. I must not under state how good that defensive presence is. That, on top of good backdash RPS with 2B & the power of herding + dog makes Pom challenging to pin down. Winning defense on Pom rarely resets to netural, it skips straight her turn like she's a Skullgirls character. Without dogs, she's more reliant on her normals- which is a bit of a mixed bag. She doesn't have a real jab, but she does have 2B. This creates a strange scenario where she can punish a lot of things that other characters can't (such as low profiling certain character's jabs), but she'll miss out on free jab punishes enjoyed by the other characters (such as magic spark or stomp A on IB).
Pom's neutral is good, only really lacking in the ground mobility department. This hurts her a bit against zoning, despite having some good work around tolls. She has good midrange reach, but they are higher commitment pokes due to their extended recovery. The thing is, most of these weaknesses change once dogs are on screen. Match up permitting, summoning a dog is not very hard in neutral. Those conditions are a lot easier to clear than you might think (it takes less time for Pom to summon a dog than it does for Oleander to get a stock of magic).
Pom is the hardest character to predict the development of, and while she can't abuse the system as hard as other characters- her base toolkit is terrifying. I believe she has potential to be the strongest character in the game with more time, development, and offline play- but that's a long ways out.
A+. Tianhuo
I also want to touch on Tian's defensive options- they're bonkers. 7D on wake-up? Not very good. 7D as an option after instant blocking? Hoo boy, that is yucky. Over extend on your offense, and you might eat a counterhit jC starter. Counterplay is there through air to airs and throw. But like anything throw vulnerable, backdash makes it way scarier.
Tian's damage is probably her biggest weakness. While her max JD damage is solid, she has a higher touch count than most characters if the opponent properly manages their juggle decay. Still, mit's a lot better in 2.0! There is more explosive power behind level 2, which even allows her to three touch from big punish starters- those conditions are just inconsistent unless the opponent is willingly eating counterhits.
Her frame data is also odd, but it isn't a deal breaker. Her stagger windows aren't as lenient for frame traps. 2A is a 7F normal with sixteen frames of recovery, which is as much as her 5C. 6A is significantly slower to start and recover than other 6As, and having it whiff on crouchers also hurts her rebeat potential But eh former weakness is minimized by having other strong anti-air buttons. That's sort of the thing with Tian- for every weakness she has, there's a way she can work around it to minimize how much it harms her.
Despite maining Tian, I'm not actually very opinionated on her. In my initial video, I considered moving her up to the top tier. I think she could still be there, so I've settled on her being the "borderline" pick. You can make an argument that her raw stability and flexibility makes her worthy of S. You can also argue that her less definitive win condition & lower damage / health combo keep her below. I find both conclusions somewhat agreeable.
A. Paprika
Paprika's biggest weakness is her dashblock, which is interesting because her actual ground mobility is solid. But specifically for dealing with projectiles, you eat more chip while trying to approach a distant Oleander or Velvet. This can make her match-ups a lot more lopsided, even though she's extremely threatening once she hits the opponent.
Paprika's offense is good, despite the drawback of only having one low. Once they're conditioned with that low, she has potent offense that reduces a lot of juggle decay from the opponent. Her short hop mixups are good. Kiss is a really good mixup tool; it's unreactable and it reduces a lot of juggle decay. Cart C is somewhat limited by the lack of other lows, but it is still an unreactable overhead with a massive first hit bonus. Gifts force the opponent to use BC pushblock or escape the corner in other ways. Cart A is still a good stagger point. Paprika's offense is just good, but it does ask the player to be very strong at conditioning. But hey, with reward that good- it pays off!
I think some of Paprika's first hit values could use a quick look, but she's in a pretty good place overall. The system helps round her out a bit more this patch.
A. Oleander
I don't normally talk about specific discourse in these write-ups. I tend to just dismiss character discourse as venting, especially in a game as young as this one. But because the hatred towards Oleander is so prominent, there is value in understanding WHY this character is a big source of frustration. The attitude towards Oleander is very reminiscent of Es in BBCF, who is ironically another one of my least favorite fighting game characters to talk about in CF2.
Psst: If Oleander's a really hard time for you, Amaron and I literally made a a 105 minute guide to counterplaying her, neatly divided by timestamps.I've narrowed down the discourse towards Oleander to three primary factors.
Honestly? I'm pretty sure this is the biggest one. Characters with strong anti-airs and big midrange normals tend to be good "get out of pools" characters, but Oleander actually has even more checks on top of that. Epilogue is both a knowledge check and strong way of shutting down commitments from the opponent. Not to mention, the presence of great reaction buttons such as 6A & 5A mean that you get an immediate reward off of players who tend to over extend. This is a key piece of data because the neutral tempo you need against this character is more patient, and that's not easy for everyone to learn.
This isn't exclusive to neutral, either. Characters with long turns and good stagger pressure are designed to punish impatience. This might be the biggest thing I notice when I watch people fight Oleander- they just won't take their time on defense. I think she blows up poor defensive habits (fuzzy jumping constantly, pushblocking in the same spot, not IBing, trying to mash out of everything, etc). A lot of times, it isn't even Oleander players doing anything to incentivize the opponent to overextend.
Frustration is naturally baked into this archetype. Characters like Oleander might be good at disrupting your natural tempo and gameflow, which causes the rest of it to fall apart. This is a pretty universal sentiment.
I'm trying really, really hard not to talk about Es and Nine in BBCF. I won't mention them anymore, I promise.
2. Oleander requires you to use the system mechanics to counter play her.
Oleander requires you to use dash blocking, instant block, and pushblock with intent to disrupt her. Simply mashing pushblock against her will get you killed. Mindlessly mashing and guessing into her actually big starters will get you killed. Never using instant block, or using only instant block without representing pushblock, will get you killed.
You have to use the system mechanics, and use them as a form of interacting with your opponent. This is true against every character, but it's most prominent on Oleander because her entire offense is very "core" TFH interaction.
The system mechanics in this game aren't fully realized. Thankfully, 2.0 has made them easier to apply. I honestly think this part of it just needs more time.
3. Oleander benefits a LOT from netplay.
Nobody ever really wants to talk about this. Or at least, they're reluctant to admit that connection absolutely skews what works- which is something I already wrote about a few months ago.
Anyway, Oleander gets a lot out of netplay. It's a lot harder to take your time and use the mechanics to win defense when blockstring into 6C becomes a viable strategy. Timings to safejump / option select 22D are harder. Ground teleports are a nightmare online, especially in rollbacky connections. A lot of the reactive elements are hurt to the point where it covers up some of the actual weaknesses she has. Also, harder instant blocking really sucks against her.
With that out of the way, let's look at how Oleander actually fares in the current meta.
Let's be clear about her strengths. Oleander has
fantastic reactive tools in neutral- with two strong anti-airs and excellent ground pokes, as well as the best 5A in the game. Her frame data is, for the most part, pretty good. Her neutral is fantastic, as she gets to dictate the tempo in a lot of her match-ups, and she has great midrange coverage with 5A & 5B.
Here's the rough part: so many of the game's current systems work against Oleander. Having the slowest meter gain, on top of being so back loaded into level 2, is a pretty bad look. Cross Canter is an insanely high commitment for Oleander, where it isn't for other characters. Instant block guts her offense more than other characters despite her gatling freedom. The general length of her turns means you can build more meter from instant blocking. She doesn't handle pushblock well, providing you use it in conjunction with normal blocking and instant blocking. She has awful max JD damage, on top of having no practical starters that refund juggle decay on the first hit. She has to lean on throw mixups and jump in mixups. Throw mixups aren't bad to rely on in themselves, but her movement is not well suited for them. This is a possible area of development with wavedash. Double jump does give her access fuzzy setups, but this tends to be an unsustainable strategy due to her lacking an actual short hop. Having to full jump makes anti-airing on reaction a lot more feasible. The double jump vulnerability added in 2.0 also makes setting these up much riskier, and less sustainable than it was in 1.0. Again, these things aren't bad on their own, but they don't mesh well with her kit or the system mechanics.
That's the weird thing about Oleander's offense. Everything she does well has this little asterisk next to it that hurts how potent it "could" be in developed play. Her toolkit should be flexible, and it is- the system is just making it a bit more uphill.
Thankfully, her offensive failings are balanced out by her strong reactive tools and disengage ability, on top of having a great way to incentivize approaching through read. She does still have ways to encourage you to over extend and commit hard.
Fred is bonkers. Fred is such an overwhelming win condition in 2.0 that it almost off sets all of her weaknesses. In 1.0, simply delay teching through Fred and using the occasional CC to drain the timer minimized the amount of impact he had. This is no longer the case in 2.0, thanks to Fred having first hit juggle decay reduction AND the new ground teleports making Cross Canter baits a lot more feasible. Fred is blatantly unfair, and building him is what the Oleander meta currently revolves around.
Oleander is ultimately an unstable character, which is such a strange sentimenr that I feel odd typing it out. Most of the other characters in the game have an immediate threat when they hit you in neutral. Oleander doesn't have that threat from most hits, she needs to have level 2 available. Having such poor defensive options doesn't help either, especially since 22D can be universally OS'd with 2A4B. If you have to burn meter on cross canter, your threat is hurt. If you have to burn Fred to close out round 2 when the opponent is up a round, your threat is hurt for most of round 3 unless you can get some really strong neutral hits and meter steal going. It just ends up being really lopsided.
So with that said, I think Oleander is the weakest character in the game. Does this mean that I think she is bad? Hell no. And she cerrainly isn't an intuitive character to fight. But having weak defensive RPS on top of being so meter hungry in a meta where cross canter & notech is so strong does hurt her significantly. She doesn't have the luxury of just ignoring Fred when that's where most of her power is, but she also doesn't have the benefit of insane meter gain the way that characters like Velvet do.
I believe in the development from her playerbase, and I suspect this version of Oleander will look different in a few months. Her offense could get a bit better with strong wavedash implementation, which isn't favored by her current playerbase. I'm skeptical as to whether or not this will impact her much, but it is on the table.
I think Oleander's problems are a symptom of her simply not meshing with the system. With that, I think she could probably use something very small. I think the flexibility of her toolkit gives her some degree of. I also feel that more development into wavedashing could improve her already strong neutral.
Woah that was a lot. Balance opinions aside, I do hope that if you take away anything from this write-up, it's that the system mechanics are a really big part of TFH, and how characters interact with them is just as important as the toolkit itself.
Good luck to everyone competing in Grand Stampede this weekend. Focus on clean play, learn from your mistakes, and you'll do just fine!
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